if that unicron is as small as you said, why would they try to use a fold to destroy Unicron.  Wouldn’t normal Zentradei straegy and doctrine come into play.  Since when is folding into a target a normal part of Zentradei doctrine, plus the zentradei would probably only use a fold in some convoluted technobabble last resort.  For all intents and purposes it is not a part of doctrine and millitary strategy.  We have never seen it happened, and I would assume that if it were to be used, it means that the battle is going so badly that it is a absolute last resort…

that is all i have to say on the matter
carry on with your debates
and be nice

we were barring the existance of the RPG’s defensive armaments that were given to Dolza’s Command Ship.  The Fold attack was used by ASC fleets in the Masters Saga against the Robotech Masters ships…

As far as it’s been seen, Dolza’s fortress is completely unarmed on it’s own…
We weren’t counting defensive craft of any kind.
So a fold attack would be perfectly feasable…
the Zentraedi had a grasp of hyperspace folds second only to the Robotech Masters, so this technique probably was known to them.

We don’t know what Zentraedi tactical doctrine actually is, so you’re blowing smoke there…
It seems to vary between commanders (from Khyron’s reckless shoot-em-up style, to Azonia’s paranoid avoidance).

“We don’t know what Zentraedi tactical doctrine actually is, so you’re blowing smoke there…
It seems to vary between commanders (from Khyron’s reckless shoot-em-up style, to Azonia’s paranoid avoidance).”

well we know Dolza is the commander of the fleet and the commander of the ship… for all intents and purpose we see that Zentradei doctrine is destroy using there weapons.  Thus illustrating the inabilities of the fleet to capture the SDF-1.  Also, we have seen Zentradei doctrine throughout the series. 

For all intents and puropses, if going up against Unicron, one would assume that the doctrine of defolation would be upheld.  However, we know that the fleet is not there, there fore Unicron has the upper edge on firepower there.  So what do the Zentradei do… Well that is the question of the day…would a fold, if used, cause damage to Unicron…perhaps, maybe even yes…but with not tactical data on the battle fortress…on unicron… on Zentradei strategy….on Unicron’s size….on the Zentradei Fleet size….well this debate is simply going to be an endless cycle of
“dDOlzA’s $h1p has 4 mIlLion megaPoWREGfull super lasers”  that will be countered by the “UNiCRon is THE size Of the $unX1000000” arguement…

in the end its pointless with two sides that will probably never agree….therefore, i sit debates out…  and i think i am done

Zentraedi Tactical Doctrine varies with each appearance of the Zentraedi…

Lord Breetai tended to have a very tight, precise style of fighting, doing everything possible to acquire the SDF-1 with minimal damage… even going out of his way to miss it ever so closely.

Commander Khyron had a “if it moves, shoot it” philosophy that was incredably reckless…

and Commander Azonia had a very avoident style of fighting… characterized by her usual “Dolza has given me no authority to destroy it, so we’ll watch it and see what happens.”

Dolza himself seemed to have a “Do ANYTHING to win” philosophy of fighting that leads to using massive force to accomplish his aims… (bombarding earth with an entire fleet).

It’s not so much a who’s more powerful statement…
but it’s that we’re trying to be as objective and logical as possible. Or at the very least, I am.
I’m working with what I’ve seen on the show and in the movies for both series.

We were comparing Dolza’s fortress (by itself) against Unicron.  Establishing Unicron’s size logically and a method by which the theoretically unarmed Fortress could damage or destroy unicron feasably.

The weapons we know of on both are as follows:

Dolza’s Command Fortress:
-None that were ever fired in the show
-Hyperspace Fold system (gravity distortions as seen in the Masters Saga)

Unicron
-Eye based beam weapon x2 (powerful enough to vaporize most transformers if caught in the beam)
-Breath weapon (flamethrower style, not very powerful, only damaged the Quentisson ship)
-Physical attacks
-Eating smaller units (meltdown time)
-Various internal defenses

So operating on what we solidly KNOW about Unicron and Dolza’s fortress… we can basically infer that the fold attack is the only way Dolza’s fortress can damage Unicron.  True that the inter-series comparisons are guesses at best (barring the comparisons between the japanese Macross and the american Robotech, where they’re at least vaguely related).

dDOlzA’s $h1p has 4 mIlLion megaPoWREGfull super lasers” that will be countered by the “UNiCRon is THE size Of the $unX1000000” arguement…

Well, that was pessamistic… we’re having a logical discussion (mostly) and i haven’t seen anyone seriously exaggerate the power of either one (barring my one mistake going by the RPG stats a few pages back for Dolza’s fortress and Striker’s fanatic exaggeration of Unicron’s size).

just a pessimist and exagerating to make a point that some debates just become unwinnable. plus i have seen debates take REALLY bad turns

mental note to self…. sarcastic wit doesn’t translate well on message boards. :p

Striker1, a few of things:
1. You brought up using fleets as offensive weapons

he most likly send out and army of Cycloneses ahead to take on any advancing troops.

2.

Think carefully, if you can. You are Unicron, the size of Saturn, now, how big would something the size of our moon be? MICROSCOPIC!!! NOw if Dolza were to get into oyur head an dfold it would problably do nothing because it wouldn’t be close to any wital systems unless they got lucky.
Just think of this battle in terms of sizes and it’s already over!! How can you not understand this?! Plus it’s between Dolza and Unicron, no armies!! Dolza is doomed even with the army! Yes The Dinobots did do damgae to Unicron but, it was like a misquito bite!! If not smaller then!!
Something this big!!
*arms streched out as far as possible*
against this!
*fingures barely seperated*
HOW CAN YOU NOT COMPREHEND THIS!!??

You need to realx and stop attacking our ability to comprehend. We are all intelligent and this is a debate. It is nothing personal, so please do not go there. Thank you.
  :D

3. When did we say that we where using the Armada Unicron. I never said that, and this is my post. So just to be clear we are talking about Unicron from the movie.

Now Tiger141:
1.

For all intents and puropses, if going up against Unicron, one would assume that the doctrine of defolation would be upheld.

There is no plantlife on Unicron…so defolation would not be the “doctrine”.
2.I am going to assume the Zentradi have never encounterd something like Unicron. So, normal tactics and doctrine would not be used.

For all:
I have it on rather good authority, maybe not “cannon” ( i hate that word) but very close. as to the size of Unicron. This person asked me not to give his name because he did not want to be bombarded by a bunch of quibbling factions of geeks (thats us). He says that Unicron is close to 1.75 times the size of earth and not anywhere near the size of Saturn. Thake that as you will but I’m going with this guy for this bebate.

i wasn’t claming that unicron had the same size as saturn, i pointed to something Striker1 says earlier in the debate. and the gravitational distortions will still rip the head because of the fold field around the command fortress(just lock at the fold that sdf-1 does above macross) And the size of unicron is something like the size of the earth/cybetron( it´s just to watch the movie to se that i think )  ^_^

Unicron being between 1 and 2 times the size of earth makes a lot more sense than the several hundred times the size of earth that Striker said.

So Unicron being 1.75x the size of the Earth,
Unicron’s head would be the size of a largeish moon.
So the gravitational distortions from the fold field would do a lot of damage to Unicron simply by spacefolding into his head.

This is not a quote, but it’s something totally off-topic when comparing the two Unicrons (movie and Armada). 

The Unicron from the Movie stood quite easily on Cybertron and was roughly the same size as it.
Cybertron being no more than 2x the size of earth because humans could stand comfortably on it with no ill effect. 

The Unicron from TRANSFORMERS ARMADA was a small moon, a lot tinier than the movie version, he WAS one of Cybertron’s moons and as such, was not very large, maybe the 2x the size of Earth’s moon.

first off
About the sizes of the Planets.  Cybertron is the size of Saturn.  In “ifs” “ands” or “buts” about it. It’s a simple fact, just like the holder of the Matrix is the leader of the Autobots.  As for the gravity IT’S A CARTOON!!  Do you really think they would take the time to think over what effects the planets gravity would have on the humans just to entertain children?  No.  If they did the Transformers would be able to jump across the Atlantic Ocean in one skip if that was the case because the gravity would be so light to them.  We have to remember, that cartoons are never really that accurate when it comes to drawing and animating that kind of thing.  Also Springer was pretty small compared to Unicrons eye.  For Unicrons(Cybertrons) size please read “Transformers: More then Meets the Eye” source book issue 8.  Put out by Dreamwave comics and look up Cybertron.  It states Cybertrons size in the first 2 sentances.

As for the attacks on others, I meant not to be mean but you need to start reading.  I am repeating many things over that no one seemes to be seeing here.

As for the Armada Unicron SetoKaibe brought that in when he menched it.  I was mearly stating my thoughts on that subject.

Once more I stress, Cybertron is as big as Saturn.  Cartoonists where not about to call in Physics scholars to settle the gravity of Cyberton as compared to Earth just for 8 eight years olds when this was first aired.  Quite frankly I don’t think they really cared.  But it was said by Optimus that “the next time Cyberton comes around the Earth will be torn to shreds.”  Also, the same thing with Unicron standing on Cybertron.  I’ms pretty sure the cartoonits didn’t really think about the gravitational affects.  So don’t try to water down what cannot be watered down.  If this whole gravity thing is brought up again I will simply copy and paste this reply once more.

Also I highly doubt that Dolza would use the fold system.  he he himself stated, the Zentradia forces Protoculture levels were dangerously low.  So I doubt he use such a tactic against Unicron.

Just saying something you believe does not make it a fact. Everyone but you seems to agree that Unicron is NOT the size of Saturn. If he was, he would be even easier to beat as he would be slower.

Also, it is not feasible to talk about what cartoonists might have been thinking when they wrote/animated something. It’s called intentional fallacy, and it ties back to the idea that you can only judge the product. It’s semiotic theory at its finest, and Foucault’s death of the author stuff…

WHOOHOO!! 100 RESPONSES!!! We in ‘da big leagues now kids!

Nice call in teh end of your last post Darth.

For Unicrons(Cybertrons) size please read “Transformers: More then Meets the Eye” source book issue 8.

Sorry man but that is what those writers are saying. about their new transformers. No good here. Get some facts from the 80’s. Also, in all of those books it says that the info within is “unoffical”.

the Transformers would be able to jump across the Atlantic Ocean in one skip if that was the case because the gravity would be so light to them.

Negative. The transformers would be able to jump very high (as they do) but not across the atlantic.
Size has nothing to do with gravith. Mass does though, i.e. density. Earth is real soild and coverd in water. Yes I know ther are large caverns in the crust an mantel but the comprise a very samll %. Cybertron is not very solid and has no water. It is mostly caverns. It is also mostly some sort of metal. I’m not exactly sure how that would paly into things, is it a super light super tough alien alloy or is it ultra-high carbon steel or is it titanium alloy…who knows. However, I think that cybertrons gravity is greater than earths but not double.

I am repeating many things over that no one seemes to be seeing here.

Yes you are. Get some new arguements or new facts to backup old arguements. I and others always find new ways to spin the story a little..to keep it interesting. I’m having lots of fun here!

But it was said by Optimus that “the next time Cyberton comes around the Earth will be torn to shreds.”

Any planet (even the moon) that got to clost to earth would rip it to shreds. Also, when cybertron did get close to earth it was not the size of saturn.

Also I highly doubt that Dolza would use the fold system. he he himself stated, the Zentradia forces Protoculture levels were dangerously low. So I doubt he use such a tactic against Unicron.

If his ass was on the line,like going up aginst a transforming planet, you better belive he would kick that fold generator on.

Wait! I just had an epiphon…ephfo…epenefon…a brain storm! All Unicron would have to do is project a picture of a chick kissing a dude and all the zentradi woud freak out! Maybe ‘ol planed head would win…

D:

a planet’s gravitational field suddenly appearing inside another planet’s gravitational field is going to play hell with both planets no matter the size.

Striker, Unicron is not the size of Saturn and never will be, now stop saying it because it isn’t true and never will be. If a Jeep is big enough to create a LARGE hole in Unicron’s eye just by driving through then that’d have to be a moon-sized jeep.

I don’t think it would occur to Unicron to project a picture of a kissing couple… it took the SDF-1 a long time to figure that one out, and tactics isn’t exactly Unicron’s strong suit.
(He thinks like Grimlock: “Crush, smash, destroy and possibly eat.”)

I was mostly making a joke about the “projection” thing.

tactics isn’t exactly Unicron’s strong suit.
(He thinks like Grimlock: “Crush, smash, destroy and possibly eat.”)

I was under the inpression that Unicron was ultra-intelligent. He comes across that way in the movie. I gonna go with the ultra-intelligent over the Grimlokian thought process.

this is funn!! you really got a god one going her outpatient8, thums up for you….. ^_^  and to you striker1 the gravitational field of dolza´s command fortress would ripp the head to peaces!!

Well the Zentradi have very large numbers but that may not make a difference. And we don’t even have that great of an idea of what unicron can do. I think the fold tactic would be a good one but is dolza smart enough to think of it, the Zentradi aren’t know for ther great intelligance and creativity. There more of a blast it till it dosn’t move anymore type of ppl. But if it did he would still need to move in. So the best stratigy would be to launch a full scale assult to distract him then do the fold thingy (respect da vocabulay!). Then again Unicron could probly use an average Zent ship as football and wouldn’t be to bothered by the battlepods and other mechs. What if the autobots came into it, Unicron is there so therireticly they wouldn’t be to far behind and use the battle as a distraction to get in him. They could always do that Prime Matrx of Leadership thing and dolza would be proud thinking he did it and go to earth to get killed by the RDF in time for dinner.