Create an Account

email Remember Me?
Password   forgot password?
 1 2 3 >  Last ›
1 of 21
Leonard - Hero of the second RT war? (Canon ONLY)
Posted: 20 February 2008 05:42 PM  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  13457
Joined  2005-10-21

First, let me say that is this topic is for discussion of the canon ONLY (IE: The TV series). Hence, references to the novels will not be considerred valid for the purposes of this topic….

Now, on to the meat of the discussion….

I have heard many arguments for an against Leonard. However, I am looking at the over all picture, not specific decsions. Over all, I think Leonard was in a tough spot. He had a superior military force to contend with and the political force of the UEG breathing down his neck. This meant that he had to fight two wars at the same time. One, a military war to protect the Earth from the Master and a second one is a political war against the UEG to allow the ASC to do it’s job in the manner they think best. With that in mind, whether you like his decisions or not, he succeeded in doing his job and doing it well. I personally think he was the right man for the job. In my opinion, he was a hero, just as Gloval was in his war and Bernard was in his, and entitled to the same respect that is paid to Gloval or Bernard.

 Signature 

- 85ER -
MEMBER OF D.O.M.A.D.
CAG OF THE D.O.L.

- Carl Macek, to the stars and beyond time, you are not forgotten -

Profile
 
Posted: 20 February 2008 07:15 PM   [ # 1 ]  
Banned
Avatar
Total Posts:  3179
Joined  2004-07-31

Keeping up the effort eh rhade?  Here’s a few points:
1) Having bosses that demand results is not the same as fighting a second war… that’s just overblown rhetoric and not a situation he always handled particularly well.
2) Whether or not he’s a hero comes down to something that can’t be at all proven and that’s whether or not he did the “best” job (or close to it) possible given his situation.  Some people feel the Masters could have been defeated handily without the FOL being spread and others will think The Masters could have eliminated humanity entirely.

All you could possibly fish out of this lake is more non-definitive squabbling.  If it’s something more democratic you’re going for, like a vote,  I’ll start you off:
I vote NAY - he did a subpar job as abrasively as possible.

 Signature 

Want to know more about Robotech toys?  Visit:
http://www.anymoon.com/
If a particular toy isn’t up yet, check back weekly, it’s going to take a long time to get everything up.

Profile
 
Posted: 20 February 2008 07:31 PM   [ # 2 ]  
Private 1st Class
Avatar
Total Posts:  351
Joined  2008-02-15

I’m not going to say he is or isn’t a hero. He made many questionable calls but he was in a rather hard place.

Having his final battle fall apart as it did by having a Masters attack occur just as he was preparing for his attack makes it hard to judge what the outcome would have been. If he had pulled off his surprise mass attack as he had hoped we might have seen a different ending.

As for the FOL being spread, that was more an accident of Zor. If the Masters had not attacked then the ship would not have been heading for Monument city. If the 15th had not disabled the ship it wouldn’t have been out of control. If Zor hadn’t blown it up it wouldn’t have crashed on the SDF-1 site. Thats just a bad chain reaction that no one person could really be held accountable for since it was none of their intentions.

 Signature 

Lack of planning on your part DOES NOT make an emergency on my part.

Somewhat important member of the tech tavern.

Profile
 
Posted: 20 February 2008 09:05 PM   [ # 3 ]  
Master Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  6622
Joined  2008-02-03

But I’m going with Rhade on this one. It isn’t easy to be a supreme commander of an entire army (I wouldn’t know, just guessing), while having to deal with the UEG. scrutinizing & pressuring your every move? Maybe he did make some questionable decisions & I’m sure someone will happily point them out smile,  nobodys perfect, not even a supreme commander smile but overall, he did a very good job considering the circumstances & I’m factoring in canon Leonard only, not the novel Leonard. Can any of us honestly say with a straight face we could have done a better job as Surpreme Commander? ....I can’t.

Now I wait to be roasted! smile

Profile
 
Posted: 20 February 2008 09:24 PM   [ # 4 ]  
Private 1st Class
Avatar
Total Posts:  351
Joined  2008-02-15

I could have. No taxes. A holiday every month. Better health care. And the Invid would leave us alone because I would have lost the war.

 Signature 

Lack of planning on your part DOES NOT make an emergency on my part.

Somewhat important member of the tech tavern.

Profile
 
Posted: 20 February 2008 09:53 PM   [ # 5 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  5932
Joined  2002-01-27

Leonard was a soldier and a leader. 

Nothing more and nothing less. 

If History chooses to judge him a Hero then so be it.  In reality, Leonard was a complicated character in a tough spot, who allways put his duty first.

 Signature 

D.O.L. Member
XbL: Treiz Faction
The ORIGINAL meh!!!

Profile
 
Posted: 20 February 2008 10:22 PM   [ # 6 ]  
Master Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  6622
Joined  2008-02-03

You took the words right out of my mouth. smile He was just a soldier, no more/no less & he simply carried out his duty as leader of ASC to the best of his ability. Let history be his judge. smile I just think history has unfairly judged him, is all, & its probably because of the Non-Canon novels. Leonard was only Human. smile

 

Profile
 
Posted: 20 February 2008 10:28 PM   [ # 7 ]  
Master Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  6622
Joined  2008-02-03

I could have. No taxes. A holiday every month. Better health care. And the Invid would leave us alone because I would have lost the war.

Hey, to each his own. smile

Profile
 
Posted: 21 February 2008 04:30 AM   [ # 8 ]  
Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  220
Joined  2005-12-03

I agree that Leonard was very politically savvy. However i also think that he allowed to much of his political view to effect the military decisions he made (whether good or bad). He certainly was in a tough spot and he did the best job he was capable of doing. History will judge whether his best was good enough or not. 

Hmmmm just out of curiosity Treiz if history is to judge him then would he not already be judged in the robotech timeline? It would be interesting to find out how the REF view him but unfortunately there are no references to him in PTTSC or TSC that i can remember?

 Signature 

to ere is human

Profile
 
Posted: 21 February 2008 08:40 AM   [ # 9 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  2468
Joined  2001-01-30

It would be interesting to find out how the REF view him

Doesn’t matter, ultimately, since he was the Supreme Commander of the United Earth Forces until his death in 2030. That means he was their military boss. Whether they liked him or hated him is irrelevant. Besides, absolutely nothing in the Tv series even remotely resembles there being any kind of ‘rift’ over his policies. Disagreements, yes, but everyone followed their orders.

If the REF disliked his polcies, then why did Major Carpenter not relay this? Why did he not state that General Reinhardt had called for his censure (which, btw, would be impossible)?

 Signature 

Creator/Admin for Facebook pages - Robotech: The Masters War and Robotech: The Role-Playing Game

Profile
 
Posted: 21 February 2008 08:41 AM   [ # 10 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  5932
Joined  2002-01-27

The only mention of Leonard after the end of the Second war was by the old geezers in New Gen.  From the way he said it, it would seem that within the REF and other UEG forces Leonard was not seen as a villian as some fans seem to think he is.

It’s not much, but we’ll have to wait for future works to get a more complete idea of how the show’s internal history has judged his performance and eventual sacrifice.

 Signature 

D.O.L. Member
XbL: Treiz Faction
The ORIGINAL meh!!!

Profile
 
Posted: 21 February 2008 10:45 AM   [ # 11 ]  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  13457
Joined  2005-10-21

However, in this case, we are watching RT and from it’s time line, history has passed and we are the ones to judge him. So, I would call him a hero.

 Signature 

- 85ER -
MEMBER OF D.O.M.A.D.
CAG OF THE D.O.L.

- Carl Macek, to the stars and beyond time, you are not forgotten -

Profile
 
Posted: 21 February 2008 02:45 PM   [ # 12 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  1020
Joined  2001-02-15

I’m sure the Masters viewed him as a villain. 

I would imagine that his men, seeing him refuse to leave his post or ask anymore of them than he was willing to give of himself would view him in a different light.

One other thing that a lot people forget, in talking about his ‘abrasive personality’ is that he was only a ‘blow hard’ to subordinate officers, who were repeatedly acting in an insubordinate manner; particularly in his famous (later) clashes with Emmerson.

 Signature 

I just want it to be known, for the record that Commander Breetai does have both eyes….he just wears the plate on his head because it makes him look cool.

Leonard was, by far, the worst top-level Commander in Robotech….except for all of the others.

Profile
 
Posted: 21 February 2008 10:43 PM   [ # 13 ]  
Banned
Avatar
Total Posts:  582
Joined  2007-01-21

It would be interesting to find out how the REF view him

Considering that the REF left with Leonard in charge Earth’s defense I guess that they must have had some faith in him.  If they thought he was that incompetant it would be grossly irresponsible to leave IMO. :101:

Profile
 
Posted: 22 February 2008 01:53 AM   [ # 14 ]  
Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  220
Joined  2005-12-03

forgot about the old geezers in NG. I will have to re-watch that episode.

Brooklyn Red Leg any future references we get about Leonard is likely to be from a REF perspective since robotech now seem to be focusing on this military force and their war against the haydonites, so how the REF view him is important.

 Signature 

to ere is human

Profile
 
Posted: 22 February 2008 06:29 AM   [ # 15 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  3290
Joined  2001-03-13

Invid might view him as a “hero”, since he made the job of attacking Earth so much easier. 

Leonard’s actions seem in keeping with him being an Agent of the Masters than Earth’s best interest.

 Signature 

Supreme Commander Leonard is an Agent of the Robotech Masters.

Profile
 
 1 2 3 >  Last ›
1 of 21
‹‹ Rick and Lisa      How many? ››