Create an Account

email Remember Me?
Password   forgot password?
 1 2 3 > 
1 of 3
What would have happend If Leonard was pushed aside?
Posted: 15 April 2005 12:29 PM  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  1730
Joined  2001-04-17

Everyone knows that Leonard was wreckless and cost so many lives. His was was thowing tons of troops at the Masters, and dying in defeat. So what would have happend if the Emerson called the REF high command and told them about what was going on and had Leonard relived of his Command? Or by a coup, how could the war have played out with Emerson in complete control? Any thoughts -_-

 Signature 

Shadow Squad 279 Commanding Officer

It has ended! Is it really over Optimus? I mean have we seen the end of this war, forever? Who can say Spike! Is anything in this vast universe truly forever!

Optimus Prime and Spike

Profile
 
Posted: 15 April 2005 12:45 PM   [ # 1 ]  
Lt Commander
Avatar
Total Posts:  3575
Joined  2001-02-18

Any thoughts

Yes, a lot of people have given their thoughts on this subject. Have you tried using the search page (search criterium: ‘Leonard’) or going back a few months in Series and Stories and/or Hardcore?

Profile
 
Posted: 15 April 2005 12:54 PM   [ # 2 ]  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  1730
Joined  2001-04-17

I didnt go back, as those pages might have been long ago,

 Signature 

Shadow Squad 279 Commanding Officer

It has ended! Is it really over Optimus? I mean have we seen the end of this war, forever? Who can say Spike! Is anything in this vast universe truly forever!

Optimus Prime and Spike

Profile
 
Posted: 15 April 2005 01:21 PM   [ # 3 ]  
Lt Commander
Avatar
Total Posts:  3575
Joined  2001-02-18

The search page is one full page further, and one thread didn’t end until three weeks ago.

Profile
 
Posted: 15 April 2005 11:20 PM   [ # 4 ]  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  7835
Joined  2002-11-22

In facted the gloval military police was what was left of the RDF. Plus how could emerson contacted the RDF sence they lost contact which came up several times in the anime. Infact it was not untill caprinter showed up they relized that they pionier mission might still be alive.

 Signature 

Three thing never anger or you will not live for long a wolf with cubs, a man with power, and a woman’s sence of wrong
Mother of the talking tuna of the dark fin
Cat girl of the Banshee

Profile
 
Posted: 16 April 2005 03:52 AM   [ # 5 ]  
Lt Commander
Avatar
Total Posts:  3575
Joined  2001-02-18

Besided I thought the souther cross was technatly a seprate army operation

The REF and the SCA are all part of the Earth Defense Forces under the United Earth government.

Plus how could emerson contacted the RDF sence they lost contact which came up several times in the anime.

They lost contact in that they were jammed. Since Carpenter returned, the REF sent several waves against the Robotech Masters and more fleets arrived from hyperspace, some communications came through.

Infact it was not untill caprinter showed up they relized that they pionier mission might still be alive.

Would be strange since Liberty was the communications link with the REF.

Profile
 
Posted: 16 April 2005 10:30 AM   [ # 6 ]  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  1730
Joined  2001-04-17

But was anyone at least telling the REF or the UEG of Lenoards actions to warrent his removal? Cause if it where me I would demand and in sure of his removal for his lack of vision and sacrifecs his troops

 Signature 

Shadow Squad 279 Commanding Officer

It has ended! Is it really over Optimus? I mean have we seen the end of this war, forever? Who can say Spike! Is anything in this vast universe truly forever!

Optimus Prime and Spike

Profile
 
Posted: 16 April 2005 10:47 AM   [ # 7 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  520
Joined  2001-02-16

And this subject has been gone over and over. The Leonard bashers fail to come up with any other alternative that could have been done. If Emerson was in charge, Earth might have been left in even a worse stance during negociations. Besides, the UEG Prime Minister was the one pressuring Leonard into attacking, and concidering that the military forces were under civilian control, why didn’t the civilian leaders remove Leonard, rather then the mutiny that some people suggest.

Leonard did the best he could with the constant pressure the CIVILIAN government was placing on him. He suggested that the military attempt other tactics, but was immediately shut down. And he is the Commander of the military forces, it is his perogitive to seek input from his subordinates, but after he makes a decision, he expects them to follow it and support it.

While Leonard was brash (which counters the “grandfather” image that Gloval and the Macross supporters all like), but was an effective military commander given the current situation on Earth. He would have had to make many decision that people would not like in an Earth rebuilding from the devistation of the First Robotech War. And besides, his command was placed in a second fiddle role to the REF. Most things were shunted to the REF, leaving the other forces of the UEG to do the best they could with what they got. I personally feel Leonard did a great job in the Second Robotech War. I always wonder why people don’t see all the casulities inflicted during the First Robotech War and blame Gloval. But those people died in a defensive war. The Second Robotech War, we tried to bring the fight to the enemy, and people get upset during offensives, but make heros out of the defenders. That makes me sick. It is a lot harder to order your forces to make the attack, knowing that nearly one third of them will be killed nearly automaticly. But then again, in the beloved Macross, the flyboys were just defending themselves… Shame on the ASC for making the attack….

 Signature 

CSM Hover Tanker
Commanding, 1st ACR “Einherjar”

The State Of Hockey, Minnesota! GO WILD!

On the Plains of Hesitation, lie the blackened bones of countless millions, who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest, and resting, died.

Profile
 
Posted: 16 April 2005 10:53 AM   [ # 8 ]  
Lt Commander
Avatar
Total Posts:  3575
Joined  2001-02-18

But was anyone at least telling the REF or the UEG of Lenoards actions to warrent his removal?

The REF has no authority whatsoever over Leonard.

The UEG did have authority over Leonard, and knew very well what was going on. Because Leonard told them, and asked them to stop giving him such stupid orders. They didn’t.

Cause if it where me I would demand and in sure of his removal for his lack of vision and sacrifecs his troops

Well, unless you’re the prime minister of the UEG, your vote don’t count. And since it was the UEG prime minister ordering Leonard to make his sacrificial attacks ...

Profile
 
Posted: 17 April 2005 05:15 AM   [ # 9 ]  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  2445
Joined  2004-06-13

...

Everyone knows that Leonard was wreckless and cost so many lives. His was was thowing tons of troops at the Masters,

    Realistically, Leonard applied a very pragmatic approach to his situation.  Okay, so he’s loud, obnoxious and brash…but a bad tactician or strategist?  No, he did all right in my book.  :101:

 Signature 

—85er—Intubator of the D.O.L…..Flowmeter of the Dark Fin…. - Remember Carl.

Profile
 
Posted: 17 April 2005 05:32 PM   [ # 10 ]  
Master Chief Sergeant
Avatar
Total Posts:  1730
Joined  2001-04-17

If Rick or Reinhardt had set foot on the earth at that time, your telling me that Leonard would not follow there orders? As the UEG became pretty much become illrelvent

 Signature 

Shadow Squad 279 Commanding Officer

It has ended! Is it really over Optimus? I mean have we seen the end of this war, forever? Who can say Spike! Is anything in this vast universe truly forever!

Optimus Prime and Spike

Profile
 
Posted: 17 April 2005 07:24 PM   [ # 11 ]  
Private 1st Class
Avatar
Total Posts:  102
Joined  2003-07-07

... you would probably be hard pressed to do anything *but* defend when you’re up against 5 million ships wink. In Southern Cross, the ASC were outgunned, but at least the numbers were more even…

Leonard did okay I guess, but what peeved me off the most was his lack of honour. It can’t be a coincidence that most of who was set off in the second fleet were all opponents to Leonard’s plan wink. True it’s the smart thing to do but backstabbing isn’t exactly one of the qualities I respect smile.

Profile
 
Posted: 17 April 2005 08:14 PM   [ # 12 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  520
Joined  2001-02-16

That is exactly what would happen. The Earth’s chain of command did not have the REF in it, therefore Leonard nor the UEG would have to listen to Rick. Remember, Rick is a soldier, not the leader of the universe (though some around here might disagree). He is still subject to the orders of the civilian government.

As for Leonard “backstabbing” everyone who disagrees with him, the grousing rumors of those under the chain of command is very often common. It is my believe that Leonard chose Emerson due to his tactical leadership. While I may be biased, I still feel that Leonard did the best he could with what he faced. I seriously doubt the valient white knight Rick Hunter would have done better, and in my opinion, would have made the situation worse. Rick Hunter would not have the guts to make the tough calls that Leonard made. That is my opinion though.

And besides, once a leader makes a decision, his/her subordinates should follow the plan, not harp on how bad it is. Unless the order is unlawful, they should obey, like it or not.

 Signature 

CSM Hover Tanker
Commanding, 1st ACR “Einherjar”

The State Of Hockey, Minnesota! GO WILD!

On the Plains of Hesitation, lie the blackened bones of countless millions, who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest, and resting, died.

Profile
 
Posted: 17 April 2005 08:17 PM   [ # 13 ]  
Lieutenant
Avatar
Total Posts:  2467
Joined  2001-01-30

If Rick or Reinhardt had set foot on the earth at that time, your telling me that Leonard would not follow there orders?

You seem to be confused about something.

Leonard: Supreme Commander of the United Earth Forces (ie - the UEG military). Quite possibly he is the Chairman of the UEF Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Reinhardt: Commander of the REF Pioneer Mission. This is a body composed of soldiers, spacers and airmen of the United Earth Forces.
Hunter: Commander of the Earth Reclamation Forces and later Commander of the Robotech Expeditionary Forces.

See…orders originate from the Prime Minister of the United Earth Government (Wyatt Moran during The Masters War) and are passed down to the Supreme Commander of the UEF. The REF is subservient to the wishes and will of the United Earth Forces. That means, just like in the Tv series, units that come back to Earth are under the operational control of the UEF on the scene. Try watching Mind Games and you’ll see what I mean.

As for General Leonard, he did the best he could with a bad situation. He was ordered by the Prime Minister to step up attacks against the Masters. He had two choices: resign in protest or carry out said orders.

This need to villify the character of Leonard is beyond asinine.

 Signature 

Creator/Admin for Facebook pages - Robotech: The Masters War and Robotech: The Role-Playing Game

Profile
 
Posted: 17 April 2005 10:56 PM   [ # 14 ]  
Private 1st Class
Avatar
Total Posts:  102
Joined  2003-07-07

... it could’ve been just rumours concerning Leonard’s choice of who to send in the next wave and in reality he just picked who he thought could manage the job the best.

In the end, if the Robotech Masters didn’t deem humans as inferior beings, and if the human governments actually at least made an attempt to communicate, the war may have been averted. Leonard is quite similar to Patton in some respect - he likes to fight an aggressive war, taking it to the enemy as fast and powerful as possible, with no sympathy for anyone who feels they’re not up to the job. Whether that’s a good or bad thing depends on your values…

Profile
 
Posted: 17 April 2005 11:20 PM   [ # 15 ]  
Private 1st Class
Avatar
Total Posts:  50
Joined  2005-01-28

The Earth had to battle over 5 million ships in the Macross Saga, all the Southern Cross had to was battle a small fleet(I know the Southern Cross was weaker, but Earth in the Macross Saga had a lot less of a chance of winning). The reason GLoval and the rest of the military commanders from that time were so much better is because their approach in dealing with the enemy was innovative, AND effective.

The main reason the second war was won was NOT because of Leonard’s actions but because of Emerson and Danas’ tatical squadron. Sending waves upon waves of forces to attack your enemy is the most barbarian, and ineffective way of doing combat.

To put it shortly, Leonard was a close minded idiot.

 Signature 

Oh brother…

Profile
 
 1 2 3 > 
1 of 3